Pink Day in LA is on Oct. 21 this year!! This is the 10 year birthday and sadly the last one. Please try and make it out to raise awareness and party like it's 2007!! If you would like to help please contact Missy.6803
It's nice to see people care so much for the server after three years playing a "ded" game; however, a gaming community, especially one that has undergone four forums need only one thing: Minimal effort for maximum effect. Simply stated, a closed forum for guild leaders and commanders to share and discuss whatever they feel is relevant; and something for the moderators and administrators. Nothing more. Transparency, open discussion of rules, delegation of responsibilities, so on and so forth has ended up... nowhere. And yet again we've come full circle. Compounded by the fact that even fewer people now are willing to play grown up and act responsible for the good of the server. Jadon, it's great that you took the initiative and time to compose this but I'm one of those who thinks it "too much." Added by the fact that few have responded to this thread. Although I have nothing to back me up, I'm quite certain to say that over 90% player base pays no mind to this forum and quite honestly could care very little what goes on here, including myself. At the end of the day, it's the pugmanders, guild raids, the casuals, the ktrainers... the day long sentries that have impact in the game. Not this forum. If seasons were still a thing and common, I'd certainly vouch for more direction and organization (if rewards were more than a green and two blues) but at this point -- three years on -- WvW regulars play only now for its combat, friends, and social dichotomy. We need naught but benevolent dictators to oversee TS and forums. And as far as Aurust, who cares. You transfer at the heat of the moment, you're drama. Not that complicated.
Hey Jadon, this is not exactly how events unfolded. Endelon and I had both attempted to talk to Heidi about the situation and we were both told by her that she did not want to talk to us, even when there was clear evidence that Aurust had transferred. She did not at all say that she was trying to get Aurust back, she did not say that she didn't know what was going on, she just told us she didn't want to talk to us and she only wanted to talk to a certain admin that was not online at the time. The concern was that guild leaders have a lot of permissions such the ability to drag people around in TS and to create channels and we did not want a guild that was transferring to have those powers. We then went the roundabout route and contacted an authenticator who was a member of DKLT just to see if they knew what was happening with the guild. The authenticator then provided us with several screenshots that were taken BEFORE the tags were removed that basically stated that DKLT was now an SoS guild (I'm assuming that you're talking about the screenshots posted in the TS3 admin chat, these are the ones I'm talking about as well). Since Heidi said she didn't want to talk to us, it's not our job as volunteers to accommodate someone who had shut us down and to chase them around trying to get an answer out of them. We acted on the screenshots that we received and removed the commander and guild leader tags/privileges. If you think there was a problem with how TS3 admins communicated with DKLT leadership and if you're going to imply that there were power abuses by the admins, then it would be greatly appreciated if you had actually talked to the admins involved and had actually gotten both sides of the story.
Yeah, that's kinda laughable. The guilds that have transferred off of TC (even going back months to OPED and SPQR) did NOT transfer because we didn't have a server constitution with magistrates and stuff. The guilds that transferred left because they had problems recruiting, decided they were tired of the community/ the community's drama and wanted a change, or decided their asses weren't being sufficiently kissed by the TC community (B Team/vX and Phat Seals/SPQR) and felt that they could get that kissing on another server. Yeah, we did reach out to them. Chicken Caesar, myself, Apocolyte, and Flo all talked to Heidi either on TS or in whispers and she didn't want to talk to myself or to Apocolyte. She was rude to Chicken Caesar and she only went to Flo because she thought she was going to be able to spin her story and get what she wanted. It's cool you "reached out" to them but it would have been nice if you had also bothered to talk to any of us before you arrived at your assessment. And you say "they decided to post a message that stated the whole guild was now moving to SoS" but that message, as I indicated on my screenshot post in the TS staff section (which you are able to see) was posted way before permissions were removed.
This. If someone can figure out how to manage a community of over 1k members in a virtual game on how not to harass or attack others, I'd be on board. Unfortunately, no matter how the rules are stated, people are going to be people. We've lost a lot of people and guilds in the past, some have left due to things like this. Earlier this year I was considering on leaving due to the same stuff. I internalize a lot of things, being harassed is definitely internalized. I rant about it to my friends but at some point in time, that stops working. The community needs to come together on a lot of ideas and support/back them as much as they can. I still feel that Jadon's overall proposal is a bit much for the type of community we are because let's be honest: not everyone is on the forums, not everyone will be or want to be on the forums, and human nature always screws with us. Strip it down to the bare bones and have everyone pitch ideas in. I understand your passion about the entire project Jadon, but you need to accept that people will disagree with you and trying to prove or back up your reasoning [a lot] shows that a rework or rewrite needs to happen. Thus far, the website is working well and is functioning fine, at least that's what I've seen. The implementation of such a huge endeavor is going to be rocky and people will fall off, possibly even create a landslide. In the field I'm currently studying in, KISS is something that is always talked about. Try to keep it simple and accept ideas willingly, not fending for your side or viewpoint. Last time I checked, we're on the same server and on the same team. Let's work together to build a better TC.
Theglar, DemonCow, and again Beau since you posted some additional feedback and good points - please give me your patience as I will be returning to cover your questions/concerns/input after my guild raid. I already would like to say thank you for the constructive parts and discussion you have added to this, but don't forget to keep it that way. I think we would all prefer not having a real chance at something potentially beneficial to the community whole be devalued by the thread in which the constructive discussion is locked permanently. See you guys at 10 pm!
Hey Endelon - it has been great getting the TS3 project rolling so successfully and I already know how much effort you are giving so I appreciate you getting involved here. I will also bold parts and respond to them in order. Part of what I would like to say about this I already stated in my response to Flo so I would like for you to take a look at it as well. The parts I didn't mention were I completely understand the order of process that happened with the DKLT situation and know you guys did your best to handle it in a correct manner. I do feel like avoiding drama is important if possible, but in this situation I feel we jumped the gun first of all. Afterwards, some things took place that IMO are borderline unacceptable. I will explain them next, but want to state that if we already had this system up and running or something like it, there is a chance we could have avoided loosing a valuable guild. Long story short is Aurust apparently had been trolled or harassed from either an individual or a group of people. I unfortunately cannot comment on that because I never witness nor saw proof of it. I do however believe due to Aurust's nature of a quick temper, the result is understandable if that is what was claimed. Aurust was pushed too far (last reset night) and ended up solo transferring to SoS. The part you reference about how the TS team handled it imo was fine, but there should have been a step before and the TS team should have reached out to investigate a bit more. While Aurust was the leader, and reacting very poorly, he was being talked back into coming back to TC. Obviously with the server being closed this would have been difficult but might have ended up with a situation such as DKLT staying while Aurust played a friends account or the other drives took over for a while. Permissions were removed however from the DKLT commanders during this time and they became upset and confused since they hadn't transferred yet nor had the intention. When they approached the TS staff, they didn't receive a clear answer or otherwise were told they wouldn't be getting it back. They responded frustrated, along with Demonic Temptress (one of the officers) and a situation happened that IMO is akin to power abuse and they were banned outright because they were trying to argue their side. Included in this situation were various insults and implications that the confused and frustrated DKLT officers/commanders were babies and that TC didn't need them. Obviously, being banned on top of such comments, with their commander already frustrated, they decided to post a message that stated the whole guild was now moving to SoS. I have seen the screen shots and also reached out to get DKLT's side too. I am not specifically stating this to cause a problem between myself and the TS staff as they did the best they could to handle the situation correctly and it isn't all their fault. I have implied some things and if you or the team would like to talk to me about it I would be willing. I state this situation and both sides because there were misunderstandings, a lack of a proper process and communication before action was taken, and in the end nothing set up to try and prevent the negative situation from happening. It is a prime example why a lack of standards and rules or a system to regulate smooth interactions and progress can be bad. The second section I mostly cover in previous replies, but I would like to restate that someone like Zog could very well still be involved. If we found out the majority of this community believed in the benefits of this system, I would go and talk to him myself and/or set up a rep to communicate with him so he was included. And again, not everyone needs to understand it, except the ones who are already taking on organization responsibilities. I think putting this forward can be very realistic depending on what the majority of the community wants. And to that degree I have covered the details of that in another reply.
To be fair, GW2 is a video game, TC is the RP server, and we are trying to move out of anarchy. If a system is able to be described as "an RP government for a video game", it seems like it would be a fitting choice. Now, can the system be trimmed down? Yeah, I'd imagine so. So Id suggest pointing out individual things and saying "This can be removed"/"We don't need that" until it's stripped down to just the bare bones, and the system becomes a lot more sleek and easier to digest. As has been stated, what was proposed isn't an all or nothing endeavor, but a starting off point for the brainstorming process to be altered as much as needed until it ends up as something people are happy with.
@AdmiralBeau, I'm going to directly address what you've said, and while some portions are not addressed to me, I'm going to respond to them with some input: I've read through this thread and others on this site, the threads in the TCWvW War Council and outside of it before it went down, and the multiple ones on FTT during the transition to this site. When you point out "if you read through that thread, you will find the majority in favour of open access", you're meaning the majority of people who have spoken in one thread which only represents a vocal portion of the community. One thread in one place is not enough to weigh of the majority of the community, when you compare it to every topic that has been discussed combined, or even the number of guilds, leaders, and members on the server. We've so far heard from a small handful of leaders, members, and individuals, but there has been a lack of discussion from more leaders of guilds and groups. These are the people who would help bring momentum towards a decision. I've also received PMs sent to me personally by guild leaders small and large on the topic of organization and War Councils, however I mention to them it is not my role to decide. For those concerned: my job as Site Admin is not to determine the organizational structure of TC. I am not an elected Server Leader. I am here to facilitate the needs of the community and the confirmed decisions of it. I've stated this on multiple threads. Such a decision falls on the role of the leadership of guilds and groups talking together and coming to a decision, as well as the people they elect to represent them. The current War Roundtable structure is a temporary structure while we enter a time of unknown stability during the expansion. At the end of TCWvW, guilds in the War Council (comprised of small and large guilds) unanimously voted for and elected the current Server Leaders we have now, as well as the new rule adjustments that were established. Since the decision was made very recently, and the Server Leaders were elected by a majority of the War Council, they made the final approval on the War Roundtable rules posted on this site. In relation to "Under what circumstances would it not be suitable to allow a certain guild/commander access to the war council": A problem we had in previous War Councils (and mentioned all over), including the last one, that there was a lack of genuine discussion. We also had people admit that they formed small alternate guilds to use them as a loophole to work around the requirements. So people abused the system just to be nosy and read posts. The ~1 paragraph is not graded. It's a kind of self-filter as well as feedback loop. If someone took the time to write out a response and state what they would like to see and contribute, it can help build the foundation for a better organization. Anyone who actually takes the time to write an app (instead of just saying, "invite me plz kthxbai") should be considered. I have the exact same concern too. As I mentioned before, TC has had a repeat cycle of "civil wars". It's time to end that cycle and build something that will last. By "vying for the opposite", I was mentioning (same as you) that some people voiced the need for more open discussion and transparency. The disaster from TCWvW was not really the War Council, it was a group of people that went rogue and one particular staff member shutting everything down. The War Council was actually pretty stable, if quiet. I have no personal beef with you, nor anyone for that matter, just so you know. However, when members of the community send me reports that I need to pay attention to a particular thread, and I see that three or more people are engaged in a cycle of personal attacks (which really shouldn't be considered an actual "discussion"), the best decision was to temporarily lock the thread (no bans, no post hiding/deletions, just a temp lock), so people can think over what they were going to post. As mentioned, I understand and tolerate differing opinions. I don't tolerate personal attacks, especially if people call each other "dicks" or make provocative and confrontational posts. As a guild leader, the leader of an alliance of small guilds, a commander that raids multiple times a week in NA and coordinates with other commanders, I certainly have my own personal opinions. I however try my best to keep them restrained when I am on this site though, since I am staff. I don't speak on behalf of the server, nor go outside the forums and exclaim that I'm an admin. I try to stick to my role as a maintainer of this site, and make sure that things are going fine. Again, I mentioned above why having the small written portion of the app can help.
To yourself Jadon and all that may worry and you have the right to worry. All the codes, the set up..infact everything (right down to the license for the TS) have been shared out. What this means is that I cannot (as being the person who paid for the TS in the first place) "pull the plug". For at least the TS that was my wish. I dont know for these forums as im not involved it that which brings me to a second point. The forums and TS used different teams working separately. Global. You have two teams atm, doing all the stuff admin/tech wise with backups if needed. And we didnt need anyone to tell us to do that, it got done. Really and honestly dont touch it, its working as intended.
Haha, hey Deyja. Honestly I do appreciate you even replying at all, as I know there's more behind this that some others might see. I will try to cover the majority of what you express. While you see this as a bad idea, I only slightly disagree and state it could potentially be a bad idea. We have already seen negatives of me even posting the proposal in reference to certain interactions within the thread, but I still do strongly believe it needs to at least be considered. The idea isn't exactly for my system specifically to be the one that takes place, but at least A system that provides some of the things mine tries to cover. Why? Because I care about the server and my guild. I don't want to have people around me stressed out or my guild becoming restless and suffer due to the server going down hill from chaos. You know very well it has been chaos for a long time, even when you lead PiNK's forces. Additionally, when you say it won't work, I know why you state it. Historically speaking, even mentioning a big system like this is usually where the success ends due to the way conversations and overall discussion and the dedication of TC has been. I aim to try and break that mold. I can't enforce such a system on the whole of TC, this is true. But I also don't need to - the system will work if the people apart of it give its structure value which includes the oaths and rules that apply to all staff positions. To that degree, the system could be enforced on these people as they have agreed and acknowledge they would comply with it. This would also create faith in it. I don't exactly need 100% agreement on it, but it will only be put into place if the majority desire it. If not, then back to drawling board. If the majority does desire it however, that is reason enough for me to move forward with it. Your next point is extremely valid. You are absolutely right that a lot of the individuals that would need to be apart of this probably won't even see it with how things are currently. This is why I created the "Orator System". It is still in the beginning stages, but orators could very well be the bridge between this discussion and the ones who need to see it/be updated about it but don't see it directly. Additionally, reaching out to these individuals would be something I am completely willing to do judging on how the rest of the community reacts. It also does read like an RP government, but governments are just far more complex systems. I am proposing a system, not for a game, but for the community that enjoys the game so that we can continue enjoying it and protect our treasured hobby or escape from the every day life.
Hey Flo, I will go over your points now! Thank you for replying and giving input on this. I will do the same thing and go in order of the bolded parts. The first bold you reference a very true and unfortunate reality here on TC, or at least specifically TC forums. Debates HAVE been ending in split community populations and usually ending in just bad blood for both sides. This is largely due to most discussions or even arguments never getting any fair closure. IMO, this is due to us not haven't any specific system to assist with that. Topics get muddy and float off to other things as replies keep coming but we need to focus more on keeping to a constructive system for these types of things. My system does propose a lot, and I guess it isn't specifically mentioned in it, but we need to utilize polls and votes far more often. No one can argue with a majority vote as long as we make sure (via a system) that information about a discussion is spread out to as many of the community as we can. I completely agree with the success we have had! The forums AND ts3 have come very quickly and successfully. However, the same can be said about tcwvw.com. Those individuals also did the same as is being done here, and the end result was horrible. I don't predict the same will happen with us, but I can't stop asking myself; what if it did? We would once again have nothing in place to take care of the matter OR try and prevent it in the first place. We really should risk such important things. Additionally, there have been some small bumps, such as the DKLT situation but I will cover more of that in reply to Endelon. These bumps and the loss of another NA prime time wvw guild could have been avoided completely if we had something like this system in place. The next part is a very fair point summed as such; things in the proposal are already happening. This is awesome, but that is all the more reason a system like this could benefit such efforts. These things are already happening but is there any protection against bad situations popping up? Is there a way to handle huge problems that might occur? This will largely be up in the air instead of the hard work and efforts being protected and supported with something other than a "thanks bro for the forum and ts3!". With your last part I completely agree. Things need to move forward regardless, and even if not 100% of the community agrees. I do urge we try to find the majority one way or another though so currently I am pushing the orator project forward. This should help shuffle more of the uninvolved community into the forums and help get more of the population informed. After a bit of time, we would be able to simply request what the community wants via a poll or vote and the community would respond. As for the politics, I hate it as well but unfortunately it still remains apart of the system only based on the votes. These votes will be fair though as the community has the ability to pick the individuals put into the positions (i.e. the Custodian).
just to touch on your last point though, I mentioned that the only leadership we need is interms of tactics and strategy, seeing that the site admins are doing a fine job of running the community side of things. I probably could have phrased that better. In saying that, there have been a few instances since posting that which have changed my opinions somewhat, and made me fear the direction the admins might be going, which is why recent posts may contradict what I said there. if you do manage to implement this and it actually works, I'd be completely on board. I have no qualms with the system itself, just perhaps a little unrealistic, but I'd love to see you prove me wrong Just to add, my PC will be running again in a few days and I'd love to get involved in the leadership side of things rather than just posting opinions of the forum. I recently had surgery so im off work and have plenty of free time, so im planning to start commanding a lot again. Pugmanding has always been my specialty so im really hoping the expansion brings in an influx of new players, especially considering i dont have a guild group to lead
I finally get a chance to reply to peoples comments and concerns! Yay! I will go through each one in order. If you have any further comments/questions/concerns about my response, please feel free to reply again with them! Please do try to keep the posts constructive as anyone so far that has replied to this thread either cares for the server a lot right now or has cared it and been involved in the past. I will start off with Beau's first post and touch on the bold parts in order. I completely understand you perspective of this going overboard, but I knew that was a potential reaction going into this. It isn't that I just put my passion into the creation of this system and love for the server, but my fear of the potential negatives to come should we let things go as they are. In my opinion, while this is very detailed and wordy and full of info, this system is only just enough to try and preserve the good in all parts of the community we currently have. If I didn't need sleep, I would have done more or would be doing more. As for the comment about the pugs who keep the server alive, I might have agreed with you about 2 years ago. I by no means am saying that militia do not have a large part to play in TC's success today, because they do, but they are not what keeps this server alive. TC has always been bottom heavy in reference to being a pug server (few at the top organizing/leading, everyone else following or assisting) since the beginning. This over time transitioned into guilds maintaining large chunks of this servers success rather than just pugs and militia showing up without incentive. I will use a few examples and state some facts on the current state of things for perspective: Season 2 was a shit storm leadership wise, but we had a huge influx of militia and pugs due to the achievements. We were so full and pushing hard in all time zones under leadership from guilds because of these additional forces. This ultimately secured our chance to even set up the 2v1, and push for an opportunity for first place in the last match. This was the last season I participated in, and the last real involvement in server organization I had due to the fact the last match flopped extremely hard. The only maps to actually have any forces were TCBL and EBG and only because there were guilds organizing there (original NOPE had TCBL that last week). Our moment of need of the militia and the extra power they provided was neglected because they simply didn't show up. The only success we had that last week was majorly from guilds alone. Since then guilds (small or build) that raid often enough have been the biggest reason for our success.The server is nowhere near where it was once before. Militia is an old term we used for pugs that had no guild or weren't apart of a dedicated WvW guild. This used to be a huge portion of our forces in the field, but not anymore. At least during the NA prime time (which is where the pride of our militia originally was born), any channel you see with additional players not of the guild organizing the raid will most likely have tags from other WvW guilds. Old militia are nowhere near as numerous as they once were, and moslty achieve success when either a guild is organizing a raid, or a pugmander is currently running (we have very few) or they are sentying (this has been increasing but still barely happens compared to how it used to be). A recent example is my past Saturday raid. NOPE was on SoSBL and we had about 25-30 members on the map fighting. Our raid was actually 65 people, with an assortment of other wvw guild tags and only a very small number (maybe 5-10) without a tag at all. If we hadn't been raiding, these individuals might have gone to another BL where a commander was running, but there were only 2 main forces active that night, ours and EBG. We constantly bounced back and forth to defend TCBL and SoSBL. Since we have lost so many individuals and guilds overall (this includes the nearly hundreds of players they had in those guilds combined) we are now down to only a few guilds organizing and running on field in NA prime. Other time zones have a good number of "mixed" tags instead of a full unified guild force (OCX for example) but they still mostly have WvW guild tags or are veterans already.So why do I go over this? Because it is the leaders of these guilds and other individuals who are already trying to keep things rolling that need to look this over or understand it. While I do strongly believe in this being discussed and displayed publicly, I also believe a good majority of players within the community who see this won't even need to know all its details nor understand it. If the ones making the most difference on this server wanted to rally together and get something like this set up so that the whole community can enjoy the benefits of it, then this isn't too much. For the next bolded part, I want to simply ask; how are you defining easy going players and how can you state everyone on this server is casual? I have no problem with players that just like to enjoy wvw and don't go to the next level, joining a WvW guild and practicing/doing overtime so they achieve success. I do have a problem with fair weathers though. It is extremely disgraceful and embarrassing to have matches lost simply because people didn't feel like showing up. Need a break? That is fine, but when you have hundreds of players simply skip out because things get a bit challenging instead of sticking it out to try and do their best regardless while others are working their asses off, it is heart breaking. This is one of the biggest reasons we have had so many dedicated and constructive individuals get burnt out and cease any kind of assistance. I don't want that for anyone on my server. I don't play casually when I am online but I don't expect others to do the same. I do however expect them to at least fight for the server and be there when we need them. Additionally, while we have been welcoming, we have also been just as judgemental and callous towards people coming in if they had different views than us. I am all for welcoming and being open and fair and accepting, but historically our lack of some foundations has caused extremely toxic interactions. Even if the server did open up, I would be hard pressed to bet on any major guilds transferring over here. People say more negative things about TC now on the outside than they do positive with how things are. Honestly we don't really have anything to disprove some of what they say because we aren't walking the talk. For the next bold - no one will be forced into this. This proposal is extended to the community to review, look over and help shape to what they want. The ultimate decision would be left to a vote, and even then that is just to see how much of the community would be involved in it and be willing to give it a try. I can add it into the details if needed, but anyone outside of this system wouldn't be harassed. Only the people within the system would have rules and restrictions (for the benefit of all) that could be enforced upon them. In the past things like this were forced and people tried to declare that everyone should comply even though they were being bullied and yelled at and treated poorly. If we DID start this system up, we would not do so and would adopt the truly welcoming nature that TC has had in the past. The next part, you have a very good point. People will be for, or against, or not give two shits about this. Again, after a while of discussion, the installment of this system would be put to a vote OR poll that had options for the majority of the community to show once and for all what it wanted. Based on that vote OR poll, we would act. If the majority didn't want it, then we wouldn't use it. Keeping things simple has always resulted in conflict. Not once has TC established a fully dedicated and working system to be able to judge if it would work. I have seen and been apart of every alliance, and not one of them have been this fully worked out OR have balances to provide benefits to everyone without power abuse. Keeping things simple as they currently are has also resulted in forcing the work load onto individuals that do care. These individuals are stuck in a hard place because they want to see the server succeed, but they are largely left to their own devices to make it happen. That is a lot of stress and again, has lead to extreme burn out for people in the past. Lastly, you mention the admins here on the website. I would like to point out the admins here, while they do partake in WvW on the side and have their own projects, are not our specific server leaders. You have also since posting this cried out against these said admins. Perhaps that is simply proof that they aren't doing a good enough job as you stated? Or perhaps they are doing their best but we have no system to assist in keeping things smooth for everyone? Please consider these points, then I would like to hear your response regarding them.
A consensus applies a majority, and if you read through that thread, you will find the majority in favour of open access. It was basically only you who seemed to be against the idea. Answer me this, under what circumstances would it not be suitable to allow a certain guild/commander access to the war council? If you cant give a good answer to that, i fail to see the point n enforcing any kind of slection process. As ive stated many times before, the only criteria necessary should be the will to participate. If you want it for inter-guild communications, why are you against guilds freely having access? Wouldn't that be in agreement with your cause? Sounds awfully like you want quick and easy communication between guilds who you know are always going to agree with you. Ie, a giant circlejerk Don't make this about me. I have no interest in your war council, i do my own thing anyway. My only concern is a potential repeat of past failures, because not much seems to be changing. @Ryvalia, no, no one is 'vying for the opposite'. What we have here is the EXACT same sytem we had in tcwvw, which turned out to be an absolute disaster. I just can't see the logic in this. It's also pretty rats of you to lock a thread mid conversation, a conversation in which you have your own obvious opinions on, then complete misrepresent the arguments of the other side. No one is pushing for complete open access. If they are a leader or driver of a current active WvW guild, give them access. How is that the opposite of what we have now? It's literally the same but with more freedom and transparency, ie what TCers were asking for after the last debacle. If they are a current active WvW guild or driver, give them access. If they are a current active WvW commander, give them access. If someone can give a decent argument as to why this shouldn't be the case, I would love to hear it. As Thelgar mentioned, there is no reason to have to justify a position in the council with some bullshit paragraph about what you want to bring to the table. It's irrelevant, the approvers don't need that kind of discretion because it makes it far too easy to vet out potential enemies and push their own agendas.